PN1

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Given this conference is being recorded could I just get each of the parties to announce their appearances beginning with the parties in Melbourne.

PN2

MR S MILLER: If your Honour pleases my name is Miller, initial S. I'm appearing for the Australia Federation of Air Pilots in relation to the Air Pilots Award.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you, Mr Miller.

PN4

MR S LUTTON: Your Honour, my name is Simon Lutton appearing for the Australian Federation of Air Pilots as well.

PN5

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Lutton.

PN6

MS C LARKINS: Your Honour, it's Larkins, initial C, also for the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.

PN7

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you. Presumably all singing from the same song sheet?

PN8

MR MILLER: Yes, your Honour.

PN9

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No internal conflict about which I should be made aware.

PN10

MR MILLER: No, there's no conflict, your Honour.

PN11

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very good. In Sydney?

PN12

MR K LOVELL: Good morning, your Honour, Lovell, initial K, appearing for the Qantas Group.

PN13

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Lovell.

PN14

MR LOVELL: I have with me Mr Haggerty, initial E, manager, industrial relations with Qantas.

PN15

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN16

MR LOVELL: Appearing in respect of both the pilots and cabin crew awards.

PN17

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, and I received some correspondence this morning from the Ai Group indicating that a representative of the Ai Group is unable to attend; that they'll review the transcript and may seek to be heard in relation to any matter subsequently. It's an interesting approach but in any event we're here.

PN18

I just wanted to try and bring these conferences to an end by being clear as to any matter that remains outstanding and whether it can be resolved and if not then it should be appropriately dealt with by a relevant Full Bench, the Full Bench of which I'm a Member, if it's a technical and drafting issue, and if there's any substantive issue then another Full Bench to be determined by the President.

PN19

So can we begin with the Air Pilots Award, and perhaps begin with AFAP. Are there any matters which remain outstanding from your perspective?

PN20

MR MILLER: Yes, there are, your Honour. If I could draw your Honour's attention to the summary of proposed technical and drafting submissions that the Commission has drafted previously and that the parties have considered.

PN21

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN22

MR MILLER: I will refer your Honour to the specific items of that summary for ease of reference. The first issue is item 13 of that summary which pertains to the definition of flying hour in the context of casual employment.

PN23

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN24

MR MILLER: There has been some correspondence between the parties, your Honour. We received just in the last 24 hours confirmation of the position of the Qantas Group in relation to the definition of flight time and that is the definition over which there has been some difference of view. Whilst considering that position, ultimately the AFAP wants a position that reflects what the pilot log book indicates. We believe that we can, between the parties, reach a position that is acceptable and we believe that we can do that within a relatively short period of time; maybe one to two weeks if that's acceptable to you, your Honour.

PN25

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN26

MR MILLER: The second issue that I would like to draw your attention to is in relation to item 34 of that summary which reflects the summary of hourly rates of pay and summary of monetary allowances. Your Honour, this is a drafting issue on which we submitted a table reflecting proposed additions to rates of pay which incorporate allowances based on casual employees. We are awaiting confirmation on the respective positions of Qantas and the Ai Group in relation to that summary, but that remains an outstanding issue.

PN27

The third issue, if I could draw your Honour to is item 38 of that table which pertains to dealing with excessive annual leave. This wasn't an issue that the AFAP raised in the context of this review. It was one that those in Sydney did raise.

PN28

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, Mr Miller, I've only just looked up and noticed that you're standing. You don't need to stand, Mr Miller.

PN29

MR MILLER: Thank you. I'm sorry.

PN30

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, now, item 38, did you say?

PN31

MR MILLER: That's right.

PN32

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN33

MR MILLER: Which deals with excess annual leave. This wasn't an issue that the AFAP originally brought within the context of the review. It was one that was brought on behalf of Qantas and the Ai Group. We were willing to engage in discussion on that issue. We have in late May submitted a proposal which both Ashursts and the Ai Group have considered. We received in the last 48 hours a response in relation to that issue. The AFAP no longer wishes to press its claims in relation to excess annual leave. We think that the matter can now be disposed of from our perspective.

PN34

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Yes, thank you. Mr Lovell?

PN35

MR LOVELL: Thank you, your Honour. I agree with Mr Miller's summary of the status of each of those issues.

PN36

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. So working backwards 38 can go?

PN37

MR LOVELL: In relation to 38 I think that the settled position of the parties is that the model clauses ought to be adopted save for the description of what the threshold for excessive annual leave is and that's to be described by reference to 84 days being twice the 42 days entitlement to which the award refers.

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Miller, that's agreed.

PN39

MR MILLER: Yes, it is, your Honour.

PN40

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you.

PN41

MR LOVELL: That's on the basis that the AFAP is no longer pressing other amendments to the annual leave provisions.

PN42

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, which I think Mr Miller has indicated.

PN43

MR MILLER: That's correct, your Honour.

PN44

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right. Thank you.

PN45

MR LOVELL: Your Honour, in relation to working backwards, item 34, the Qantas Group has had an opportunity to consider the table prepared by the AFAP. This is a table that would summarise the hourly rate of various applicable allowances in the nature of salary that are payable to casual employees. Qantas Group has no objection in relation to the inclusion of that table. We have not been able to confirm Ai Group's position with respect to the inclusion of the table but our positon is that it can be included.

PN46

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll mark it as agreed as between Qantas and AFAP, and Ai Group can put a contrary view if it wishes to once it's viewed the transcript.

PN47

MR LOVELL: Thank you, your Honour.

PN48

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Miller, are you content with that?

PN49

MR MILLER: Yes, your Honour.

PN50

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The further discussions in relation to item 13, Mr Lovell? Are you content to have those?

PN51

MR LOVELL: Yes, your Honour, we are. Just for the Commission's benefit, essentially the parties are not very far apart on this. Qantas Group's position is that the definition should reflect the current regulatory definition reflected in the Civil Aviation orders. We understand the AFAP's position is that the definition reflects what was previously the definition reflected in those orders and is still reflected in various manuals and processes utilised by various operators. Qantas's sort of fairly firm view on this is that we should take this opportunity to incorporate the contemporary and most up-to-date definition. We accept that at an enterprise level there might be small variances in it. They are not substantive variances. We just don't wish to inadvertently create better off overall test issues in relation to subsequent enterprise agreement approvals by including a definition that is slightly different from the one that we are presently using across various operations because it's the definition reflected in the civil aviation orders.

PN52

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. How would you rate the prospect of reaching an agreement on this issue, Mr Lovell?

PN53

MR LOVELL: I have to say of my colleagues at the AFAP they've been open to properly discussing this issue. I remain reasonably confident that we'll be able to work through as between the parties.

PN54

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Miller, you suggested a couple of weeks. If I give the parties three weeks, is that ‑ ‑ ‑

PN55

MR MILLER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN56

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The parties will have further discussions and if they can report back by Friday, 8 September. Thereafter in anticipation of the parties reaching some sort of an agreement I would propose to prepare a report to the President in relation to the technical and drafting issues progress that we've made and the matter can be dealt with by the Full Bench to give it finality.

PN57

MR LOVELL: Your Honour, in respect of the Pilots Award, just for completeness, there are in Qantas Group's submissions two outstanding issues; one with respect to the proposal by the AFAP to include a definition of duty time. At the previous conference in this matter that was identified as a matter that would have to be referred to the substantive Full Bench.

PN58

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, I was remiss in suggesting that my report would also include matters that need to go to a differently constituted Full Bench for a September hearing.

PN59

MR LOVELL: Thank you, your Honour. There is a second issue as well in relation to the rate of pay for a particular aircraft type, the Embraer 135/145. The Qantas Group does not operate that particular aircraft so does not have a direct interest in the particular wage rate to be assigned to it, but we are concerned to make sure that historical relativities are maintained. Our technical advice in relation to that matter is that the proposed rate which aligns with an existing aircraft type, the CRJ-50, is not necessarily the correct rate. We have notified the one operator that we're aware of that operates that aircraft in case they have an interest in that matter, but that might be a second matter that needs to be referred to that separately constituted Full Bench so that the rate of pay can be set by reference to the relevant evidence.

PN60

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me just see the list. Is that issue reflected in the current draft of the substantive variations list?

PN61

MR LOVELL: My colleagues at the AFAP might be able to assist you with that, your Honour.

PN62

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Miller? Is it the second item?

PN63

MS LARKINS: It is. It's item S1, your Honour.

PN64

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The first item, all right.

PN65

MS LARKINS: That's right.

PN66

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes, I see. All right. So you're raising it, Mr Lovell, out of interest and have been confirmed with at least the party that might be affected, and that party have made an appearance?

PN67

MR LOVELL: It has not, your Honour.

PN68

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are they represented at all by Ai Group?

PN69

MR LOVELL: We're not aware of that either, your Honour. We thought for the purposes of transparency we'd draw that to the Commission's attention.

PN70

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure. Mr Lovell, would you mind separately providing details of the known affected party to my Chambers and I'll ensure that they receive some notice that this is an issue that might be agitated at a future time.

PN71

MR LOVELL: Thank you, your Honour. We will do so.

PN72

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. All right. Is there anything else? No?

PN73

MR MILLER: Nothing further on behalf of the AFAP, your Honour. Thank you.

PN74

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll adjourn the conference on the basis as discussed. If the parties could report back by the date earlier notified in relation to its further discussions in respect of item 13 otherwise thereafter I'll prepare a report to the President on both the technical and drafting and substantive variations issues can be finalised by appropriate Full Benches. Thank you for that. The cabin crew issues, Mr Lovell?

PN75

MR LOVELL: Yes, your Honour. If I can direct your attention to the revised summary of submissions, technical and drafting issues?

PN76

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN77

MR LOVELL: The only item outstanding in the Qantas Group's view was item 9.

PN78

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN79

MR LOVELL: Which related to the same annual leave common issue.

PN80

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN81

MR LOVELL: Qantas Group has corresponded with the participating parties on the same terms as with respect to the Pilots Award. We have not received any response to that proposal but we consider within the circumstances that issue has been resolved at least from our perspective.

PN82

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Ai Group appears to be the other participating party. It's not here. It will read your comments in the transcript. If it has a contrary view it should notify my chambers, but otherwise I will shortly after 8 September prepare a report in relation to this matter also. So if AiG have a contrary view in relation to the status of item 9 then it should notify my chambers before then.

PN83

Thank you, all. Have a good day. We'll adjourn. Thank you.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.57 AM]