PN1

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, please be seated. Can I just start by taking the appearances and I'm happy for everyone to stay seated when you speak because I think that's going to be easier with the video link, thank you.

PN2

MS A DEVASIA: Thank you, Deputy President. It's Ms Devasia for the AMWU.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Devasia.

PN4

MR Z DUNCALFE: Duncalfe. If the Commission pleases, Duncalfe initial Z, for the Australian Workers Union.

PN5

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Duncalfe.

PN6

MS R BHATT: The Commission pleases, Bhatt initial R, appearing for the Australian Industry Group.

PN7

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Bhatt, and by telephone?

PN8

MR B ROGERS: Rogers, initial B, for the NFF.

PN9

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Rogers.

PN10

MS A AMBIHAIPAHAR: Ambi, initial A, from the CEPU.

PN11

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Ambi.

PN12

MS I LARSEN: Larsen, I, I'm from ASMC.

PN13

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Larsen. Can you get a little bit closer to the phone.

PN14

MS LARSEN: Thank you, sorry.

PN15

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can everyone hear Ms Larsen?

PN16

MS DEVASIA: Yes.

PN17

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN18

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good, okay. Yes, thank you.

PN19

MR P LUKE: Luke, P, for the ASMC.

PN20

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Luke. All right, well as I understand it from the material filed by the parties, we've gotten to the position where there are two outstanding issues that are going to require arbitration by the Full Bench and they are the question about whether the casual loading and the piece work loading compound upon each other or whether they're separately calculated and just added together and the other issue being the AMWU claim for a tool allowance for apprentices. Is that the position?

PN21

MS DEVASIA: That's correct, Deputy President.

PN22

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, and can I understand that all of the material that the parties are intending to rely upon at hearing has been filed in relation to those matters?

PN23

MS DEVASIA: With the tool allowance, the AMWU will also be filing a draft determination and I can have that filed within a week so that I understand the AIG will also be looking to file a reply to that in addition to the reply that they've already filed.

PN24

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The AMWU draft determination in a week and there's to be a further – is a further week sufficient for a response to that?

PN25

MS BHATT: Deputy President, if I might be heard on this issue?

PN26

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN27

MS BHATT: We filed a submission on 15 June which identified the fact that the AMWU has not yet filed a draft determination which has meant that we haven't been able to fully respond to the claim. I had some discussions with my friend from the AMWU overnight and we think that there might be merit in there being some discussions between the Australian Industry Group, the AMWU and any other interested party once the draft determination has been filed.

PN28

Our difficulty at this stage is we don't know several key elements of the claim that the AMWU's proposing, such as the quantum of the allowance or, indeed, the circumstances in which it would be payable, and our submission that was filed last week identifies some of those concerns. What I was going to propose to you today, Deputy President, is that once the AMWU has filed its draft determination, the parties be given a period of four to six weeks to have some discussions.

PN29

We are optimistic that we might be able to reach some resolution or agreed position in relation to the matter or, at the very least, to narrow the scope of the difference between us. It may be that after that, we want to file something further but I mean I'm not sure that I'm able to tell you definitively whether or not that will be the case because it depends on how the discussions progress.

PN30

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's around the issues that you put forward such as it should reflect what's in the manufacturing award, if anything, there should be capacity for employers who have already got a practice of providing tools to have an exemption and those types of issues?

PN31

MS BHATT: That's right, Deputy President. Those are the sorts of issues that we'd like to have an opportunity to ventilate with the union.

PN32

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How about if we give you a period of ‑ say the AMWU will have a week to file the draft determination and then if I give a further period of four weeks for you to have discussions and then we list the matter for a further report back in four weeks?

PN33

MS BHATT: Yes, Deputy President. If the Commission pleases, I was only going to propose that an alternate way of dealing with it might be that we report back in writing. We're in the Commission's hands as to what's most convenient.

PN34

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm happy for you to report back in writing within four weeks if you'd be able to do that, that would assist and then at least I'll be in a position then to know what are the final issues for arbitration and if also when you report back in four, could all the parties – so we'll give a week to the AMWU to put on the draft determination, four additional weeks for there to be some discussions and the position to be put back to me about where you've reached with those discussions and could parties also provide dates upon which they are not available for an arbitration, rather than dates that you are available, dates that you're not, so that I can attempt to program the matter.

PN35

MS BHATT: Yes, Deputy President, and at that stage, if it appears that we seek an opportunity to file a further short submission, we'll indicate that in that correspondence.

PN36

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that will be great.

PN37

MS BHATT: Thank you.

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you for that.

PN39

MS BHATT: Thank you, Deputy President.

PN40

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are there any other matters we need to deal with?

PN41

MR DUNCALFE: Your Honour, in relation to the casual and piece work loading and how it's calculated, I haven't actually spoken to the NFF about this so I thought I would raise it now, the AWU doesn't necessarily believe that it's an issue that requires a hearing and can be dealt with on the papers just as effectively so I would request that we could do that if the NFF agrees.

PN42

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it might be – well given that it's allocated to a Full Bench, it might be other members of the Bench may have some questions or issues that they want to raise about the matter so I'll take that on board but I'm not sure that that's going to be the appropriate way to deal with it. It might only take a short hearing but because the written submissions are in, et cetera, but it may be that other members of the Bench have a different view so I'll take that on board and raise it with them and see where we go with it.

PN43

MR DUNCALFE: Certainly, your Honour. We're happy with whatever way it progresses but if it could be dealt with on the papers, that's probably a best course for us.

PN44

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN45

MR DUNCALFE: Thank you.

PN46

MR ROGERS: Your Honour, it's Rogers from the NFF, we have no objection to it being heard on the papers either, so we're happy in the Commission's hands.

PN47

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Are there any other matters? Well thank you all for your time today and I'll issue further directions in relation to the matters that we've discussed and on that basis I will adjourn. Thank you.

PN48

MS DEVASIA: Thank you.

PN49

MS BHATT: Thank you.

PN50

MR DUNCALFE: Thank you, your Honour.

PN51

MR ROGERS: Thank you.

PN52

MR LUKE: Thanks, your Honour.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [9.27 AM]